I have 30,000 books in my library in several languages with sections that address all fields within the social sciences, humanities, arts and literature. Not too long ago, a European journalist marveled at one of the largest sections of my library which includes hundreds of books on "religions." In response to a question from him, I said: my country, Egypt, is comprised of more than Muslims, so how can I not try to know all I can about each religion? In 1967, the year I entered the university, an earthquake occurred in my life, the June 5th war. How can I not try to know all that I can about Israel and the Jews?
I immersed myself in the study of the Bible with its two covenants. I studied the history of Christianity, the history of the Egyptian Church, and theological issues. As such, my relationship with my fellow Christians became as it is now. And I delved into a study of the Torah and other sacred books of the Jews, the history of the Hebrews and the Jews over the last 40 centuries, the miserable history of the Jews in Europe after the Romans expelled them from the Holy Land in 70 CE until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, and the history of Israel since its state was established three years following the end of World War II. As a consequence of these intensive studies, my vision of the Jews and of Israel has become different from those who do not know a fraction of what I mentioned.
Sephardi Ideas Monthly: Mr. Heggy, your curious spirit reflects an Egyptian heritage that has been pushed aside by the rise of Political Islam. In your critiques of Political Islam, especially in the form of the Muslim Brotherhood, you point to Muhammad Ali's Egypt (1805-1952) as an alternative. Perhaps you could share with our readers what Muhammad Ali's Egypt represents for you: what thrived in Muhammad Ali's Egypt that has been lost?
Tarek Heggy: Go back to the Napoleonic conquest at the end of the 18th century. Egyptians were deeply impressed by the new technical wonders that had been developed in France and Europe. Local observers compared Western technological progress with their own condition, and they knew they had much to learn. Muhammad Ali's Egypt accordingly looked northwest. Muhammad Ali himself and his successors did two things simultaneously: they sent hundreds of Egyptians to study things like modern engineering techniques and irrigation systems in Europe, and they employed hundreds of European experts in all Egyptian government departments. Egypt wanted to become open and modern. Amazingly, the first Prime Minister in Modern Egypt was an Armenian, Noubar Pacha (1825-1899).
For me, as person who devoted his life and work to advocate for modernity, I can’t be but impressed by this facet of Muhammad Ali's Egypt. However, this openness was aborted by Gamal Abdel Nasser, who aimed to direct the Egyptian mind from the West to pan-Arabism. Then came Anwar Sadat, who opened Egyptian society and culture to Islamist influence. Currently, the influence of Islam on the Egyptian mindset is undeniably the number one influence.
Tarek Heggy: Six years ago, after her speech to the British parliament, I shared with Mrs. Sadat my multi-layered judgment of Anwar Sadat. Sadat, undeniably, did very well in the October 1973 war with Israel, a war against an army that was much more powerful than his. Without this step, Sadat wouldn’t have been able to do what he did in November 1977 and reach out to Israel. Thanks to that move, Sadat then returned Sinai to Egypt after it was occupied in June 1967. However, while Nasser banned the Muslim Brotherhood, Sadat let the Brotherhood operate in the shadows. Sadat didn't recognize the Brotherhood, but he tried to use them for various political purposes. This de-facto alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood allowed the Brotherhood to grow, and it was a curse that Egypt still suffers from.
SIM: And the Muslim Brotherhood actually assumed power during 2012-13. They were ousted, however, by General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi following the mass public insurgency of July 2013. Since assuming power, President El-Sisi has pushed back against Political Islam and, as you like to point out, has called for the renewal of religious discourse in Egypt. El-Sisi's anti-Islamist program is part of the larger regional pushback against Political Islam, but he faces enormous challenges, as the forces of Islamism in Egypt are very strong. How do you assess el-Sisi's situation?
TH: President el-Sisi is the first Egyptian political leader to speak about the imperative need to renew the religious discourse. In my opinion, this is precisely what Egypt currently needs before anything else. President el-Sisi is the first head of a state to speak about the necessity of renewing the religious context. It is quite obvious that the Islamic institutions in general and al-Azhar University in particular have rejected this call. As far as Al-Azhar, it advocates what could be described as an alloy of the three Islamist contexts: the Wahhabi, the Salafi and the Ikhwani (Muslim Brotherhood) contexts. For the sake of perspective, you must remember, nearly a quarter of all Egyptian students receive an Islamic education in schools managed by al-Azhar. Personally, I believe that President el-Sisi has been very wise in avoiding a societal conflict about this subject. Meanwhile, I do see that there are quantitative changes that might ultimately help him achieve his goal, totally or partially, without an undesired clash with al-Azhar.
SIM: Your remark about Al-Azhar is interesting because some have argued that the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, Dr. Ahmad al-Tayeb, played an important role in defeating the Islamists and extremists after el-Sisi took power. That said, some anti-Islamist intellectuals have, like you, argued that Al-Azhar remains very problematic. What is your opinion? Does the Muslim Brotherhood still have a large following at Al-Azhar, despite its outlawed status in Egypt and the public pronouncements of al-Tayeb?
TH: I certainly oppose the current role played by Al-Azhar in Egyptian society. Al-Azhar continues to endeavor to set THE TERMS OF REFERENCE with regard to ALL political, cultural, and societal dimensions of our national life. This role that Al-Azhar continues to seek is undeniably supported by Dr. Ahmed al-Tayeb. Despite the fact that Al-Azhar is not formally related to the Wahhabi, the Salafi and Ikhwani streams, they all have common strategic goals. Political Islam movements are different ONLY tactically, yet they are strategically THE SAME ANIMAL. All of these movements, organizations and groups ultimately aim at an Islamic State that combines all the world’s Muslims and applies constitutional & legal systems based on al Shari’a (Islamic laws). I should also note that it is quite well known that both Al-Azhar and its current Sheikh have never supported Egypt’s President call to modernize religious education.
SIM: Your last point about modernizing religious education is a helpful segue to our final question. How can you shape the future of Egyptian culture when the forces of Political Islam are so deeply entrenched in Egyptian society?
TH: My forty-year study of Political Islam in general and in Egypt in particular lead me to believe that saving the collective Egyptian mindset from the plague of Political Islam requires hard work that aims for short term results and, at the same time, for a long-term outcome. While the most effective tool for the long-term goal is education, the powerful tool for short-term results is THE MOSQUE & THE PREACHERS. Egypt has some 200,000 Mosques that, altogether per year, witness between 10-11 million Friday sermons. It's an unrivaled platform that can be used for the most destructive or constructive ends.
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